The New Intimacy

How do you feel about gay marriage?

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Contributor: Carrie Ann Carrie Ann
I was reading over at the SF Gate this morning (cuz that's where my favorite columnist writes. Have you checked out Mark Morford? link You should. He's smart and funny and snarky as hell and I want to have insane sex with his brain) and, of course, the topic over there all week has been Prop 8. Which got me to thinking...

How do y'all feel about gay marriage?

We're a pretty open, liberal, sex positive community. Does that translate to our feelings about gay marriage?

I'm going to keep the poll anonymous so people feel able to answer with no pressure to answer a particular way.
Answers (private voting - your screen name will NOT appear in the results):
I'm all for it
540
I'm against it for personal or religious reasons
45
I'm against it for financial or legal reasons
5
I don't really care and wish you'd stop asking
35
Total votes: 625 (611 voters)
Poll is closed
05/29/2009
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Contributor: Carrie Ann Carrie Ann
I probably should have included an "other" answer. Feel free to list your "other" type thoughts here.
05/29/2009
Contributor: Rayne Millaray Rayne Millaray
Quote:
Originally posted by Carrie Ann
I was reading over at the SF Gate this morning (cuz that's where my favorite columnist writes. Have you checked out Mark Morford? link You should. He's smart and funny and snarky as hell and I want to have insane sex with his brain) and, ... more
I really don't understand why some of the people against it are so convinced it somehow cheapens their m/f union. I've heard the reasons they use to back it up and they make no sense.

Marriage was an institution long before Christianity existed. We called it hand-fasting.
05/29/2009
Contributor: Pumpkin Lady Pumpkin Lady
I grew up in a conservative household, needless to say I heard one side of every argument for years. As I've grown up I have this little right-winged angel/devil (you decide) on my shoulder telling whispering "what's right" in my ear when I don't have my parents around telling me what to think. Quite annoying...

When it comes down to it, I see no reason to take something away from people who want it.
05/29/2009
Contributor: Backseat Boohoo Backseat Boohoo
Personally, I'm all for it. I think everyone should have the right to marry.

Legally (because I separate what I personally think is RIGHT from what is actually LEGAL), you cannot force a church to marry two people on its grounds. So I think a religious ceremony should be decided by the individual church. If the Catholic church says they won't perform gay marriages and the Methodist church says they will, for example.
05/29/2009
Contributor: Viv Viv
My fiancee and I are currently planning our wedding for this October--and it's our wedding and we'll be married in the eyes of our gods and our friends, no matter what the law books say. So that's my stance on the matter.

Funny thing: so far of all the venders/venues/photogr aphers we've dealt with, the only person who just can't call it a "REAL" wedding is my mother. *eyeroll*
05/29/2009
Contributor: Carrie Ann Carrie Ann
Quote:
Originally posted by Rayne Millaray
I really don't understand why some of the people against it are so convinced it somehow cheapens their m/f union. I've heard the reasons they use to back it up and they make no sense.

Marriage was an institution long before ... more
Friends of ours are getting married this weekend and they've included a hand-fasting ceremony as part of it. I thought that was pretty cool.
05/29/2009
Contributor: Lara Lara
I've been sitting here trying to figure out how to think about the fact that there was only one option for "yes" to gay marriage, but three ways to explain a "no" vote. This certainly isn't anything against you, Carrie, or what you decided to put in the poll. I think it's a great and important question and it's awesome we're talking about it.

It seems like three nos and one yes type should represent something bigger about the world and the way we think, but I can't figure out what that may be.
05/29/2009
Contributor: jedent jedent
I love that I'm the 19th person to vote "all for it" on this one, with no "no" votes yet.
05/29/2009
Contributor: Adriana Ravenlust Adriana Ravenlust
Quote:
Originally posted by Backseat Boohoo
Personally, I'm all for it. I think everyone should have the right to marry.

Legally (because I separate what I personally think is RIGHT from what is actually LEGAL), you cannot force a church to marry two people on its grounds. So I ... more
Is it funny that when I read this, my first thought was "What does church have anything to do with marriage?"

No, the government cannot and should not force churches to perform gay marriage. However, church is not a requirement to marry. In fact, I personally find religious marriage to be less important than the legal aspect. But if you want your church to recognize your marriage, is that a separate issue or the same, I wonder?
05/29/2009
Contributor: Not Here Anymore f/k/a Happy Lady Not Here Anymore f/k/a Happy Lady
Quote:
Originally posted by Backseat Boohoo
Personally, I'm all for it. I think everyone should have the right to marry.

Legally (because I separate what I personally think is RIGHT from what is actually LEGAL), you cannot force a church to marry two people on its grounds. So I ... more
I agree about individual churches being able to make their own decisions about what to allow.

What I don't understand is the argument that I can't "marry" a woman in some areas, but I can be "civilly joined" to her. Especially when there are LOTS of churches, even here in East TN, that would "marry" us.

I wonder about the future of forms & speech. I mean, will the options now be "single", "married", "civilly joined", "divorced", "civilly separated", "widowed"? Yeah - that's nitpicky, but give me a little here - I have a really extensive law background which makes me question laws in practicality.
05/29/2009
Contributor: Backseat Boohoo Backseat Boohoo
Quote:
Originally posted by Adriana Ravenlust
Is it funny that when I read this, my first thought was "What does church have anything to do with marriage?"

No, the government cannot and should not force churches to perform gay marriage. However, church is not a requirement to ... more
I never said a church was a requirement to get married. I simply said that it is that church's decision whether or not they want to have those two people married in their church/on their grounds/with their clergy/etcetera. You shouldn't be allowed to force a church to perform a marriage ceremony.

Having your government recognize your marriage and having the church recognize your marriage are different. The Catholic church did not recognize my grandfather's marriage because he married a Protestant who refused to convert, and they excommunicated him. That's their right. But that obviously doesn't make his marriage illegal.
05/29/2009
Contributor: Adriana Ravenlust Adriana Ravenlust
Quote:
Originally posted by Backseat Boohoo
I never said a church was a requirement to get married. I simply said that it is that church's decision whether or not they want to have those two people married in their church/on their grounds/with their clergy/etcetera. You shouldn't be ... more
I didn't mean to imply that you said it was a requirement but it seemed like your post didn't explicitly say it wasn't and that was also important to note. Though I never thought the idea of legalizing gay marriage had anything to do with the religious aspect of marriage and it was a bit odd to see that in your initial post. But, as I think about it, it seems like perhaps the significance church and gov't defined marriages may be more important to religious folks? For instance, as a non-religious person I cannot help but think "So your marriage doesn't recognize gay marriage? Who gives a fuck, the law won't force your church to marry a gay couple and you don't have to participate in gov't recognized marriage if it bothers you so much."

Also, my later sentiments were regarding the fight for gay marriage in general. Do gays view the fight as something more legal or as recognition in general (including by church) - sort of open question statement. Obviously, church and gov't recognize marriage in different ways and the interaction of both institutions tends to define a "real" marriage for many people.
05/30/2009
Contributor: Adriana Ravenlust Adriana Ravenlust
Quote:
Originally posted by Adriana Ravenlust
I didn't mean to imply that you said it was a requirement but it seemed like your post didn't explicitly say it wasn't and that was also important to note. Though I never thought the idea of legalizing gay marriage had anything to do with ... more
Ack.. "So your church doesn't recognize" LOL Doesn't make much sense as I had it.
05/30/2009
Contributor: Backseat Boohoo Backseat Boohoo
Quote:
Originally posted by Adriana Ravenlust
I didn't mean to imply that you said it was a requirement but it seemed like your post didn't explicitly say it wasn't and that was also important to note. Though I never thought the idea of legalizing gay marriage had anything to do with ... more
Speaking as a religious lesbian, my religion's approval and participation in my marriage would be extremely important to me, just as much as the government's legalization of my marriage. Not everybody views the fight the same way, of course, just like you said, because we all want different things from life.
05/30/2009
Contributor: Rockin' Rockin'
Quote:
Originally posted by Lara
I've been sitting here trying to figure out how to think about the fact that there was only one option for "yes" to gay marriage, but three ways to explain a "no" vote. This certainly isn't anything against you, Carrie, or ... more
I wouldn't have thought to think about that if you hadn't pointed it out. Now I can't stop thinking about it. Hmm, I guess the choices imply that if you're against gay marriage, you need a reason, but if you're for it, you won't be asked why you support it. In general it implies a bias in the poll creator (which is almost inevitable). (Carrie Ann, I'm also in full support of this thread and am not trying to criticize your poll.) Maybe for a more balanced set of choices, there should be:

-"I'm for it because I'm gay and would like the same rights as heterosexual couples"
-"I'm for it because everyone should be allowed to marry their partner if they choose, even though Prop 8 does not affect me personally" (incl. heterosexual people who want to marry and any people who do not wish to marry at all)

and maybe some other one like "I'm for it and that's all I'd like to say."

Okay I'll stop rewriting people's polls now...
05/30/2009
Contributor: Carrie Ann Carrie Ann
Quote:
Originally posted by Rockin'
I wouldn't have thought to think about that if you hadn't pointed it out. Now I can't stop thinking about it. Hmm, I guess the choices imply that if you're against gay marriage, you need a reason, but if you're for it, you ... more
No worries.

The main reason I gave the choices I did was I knew it was likely and logical, given the community, that those who voted yes would discuss their reasons where as those who voted no would want to remain anonymous, hence giving them a bit of a chance to state why in the poll itself.

The fourth option I didn't even consider a "no" type answer. I actually intended it to be slightly humorous for those who don't care to discuss this sort of thing.

I can see where it would seem like maybe there's a profound lesson in the whole poll format, though.

Mostly I just did it before I'd had coffee.
05/30/2009
Contributor: Lara Lara
Quote:
Originally posted by Backseat Boohoo
Speaking as a religious lesbian, my religion's approval and participation in my marriage would be extremely important to me, just as much as the government's legalization of my marriage. Not everybody views the fight the same way, of course, ... more
Do you see one as requiring the other? If a church would recognize your marriage, would you expect your government to and vice versa? From your other post, I'd guess not, but I wanted to make sure.

I'm a big advocate of separating church and civil marriages. I've never understood why that isn't more common outside Europe.
05/30/2009
Contributor: Liz2 Liz2
I believe a marriage is a public commitment between two persons. Again, two persons, regardless of their sex. If a couple want to make this commitment in a church, go for it! If a church doesn't accept them, just look around.
I happen to live in a state where same sex marriages are legal and churches can refuse to participate and some do.

I still believe that there are still some states that ban certain consensual sex acts, even now. Good luck on enforcement. Same sex marriages will eventually be legal nationwide.

Many of us, me included, are living in relationships and not ready for total commitment to another person. A g/f is sexually involved with me and sometimes with both me and my b/f as well. Fucking complicates life but I know things will work out, but I do know, I can not get married now.
05/30/2009
Contributor: Avery Dragon Avery Dragon
I'm a gay male, and i am for marriage. Not for the legal benefits of being a married couple, but for the emotional benefit. My partner and I's relationship is only growing more and more, but I'd still love to be able to take -that- step forward.

My parents drilled into my head, as well as the good old fashioned disney movies :3, that marriage is a good positive step, and I know my parents always wanted all of their kids to get married.

I know that either way, the love my partner and I have for each other will be just as strong, but I do like the thought of truly being his, and he being mine.
05/30/2009
Contributor: LicentiouslyYours LicentiouslyYours
Quote:
Originally posted by Not Here Anymore f/k/a Happy Lady
I agree about individual churches being able to make their own decisions about what to allow.

What I don't understand is the argument that I can't "marry" a woman in some areas, but I can be "civilly joined" to ... more
I agree with you and I've been wondering myself why people think allowing civil unions as a substitute for marriage is acceptable. My feeling is, eventually, the concept will be filed under "Things that seemed like a good idea at the time when not everyone was ready to embrace full equality" right next to segregation of schools.
05/30/2009
Contributor: Tuesday Tuesday
Notice how all our yes votes are forming a rainbow.
05/30/2009
Contributor: Backseat Boohoo Backseat Boohoo
Quote:
Originally posted by Lara
Do you see one as requiring the other? If a church would recognize your marriage, would you expect your government to and vice versa? From your other post, I'd guess not, but I wanted to make sure.

I'm a big advocate of separating ... more
No, which is why I brought up the example of my grandfather. Many people are not legally married, but consider themselves emotionally bound, or visa versa, and that's just fine. Personally, I DO want both my religion and my government to recognize my marriage, but they don't require each other.
05/31/2009
Contributor: Dragon Dragon
This is an interesting post and one that I'm glad to see. However, unless you actually live in CA, I think that a lot of the complexity is often lost to other people.

Personally, I'm in favor of strong, binding personal commitment to each other no mater what it's called that has equal legal, financial, and custodial rights as the traditional "wedding" or married couple. I like the term - "marriage," and I know that the term itself is truly important to some couples. Yet, other terms can serve the same meaning. Right now they don't. "Legal Partnerships" do not confer the same legal benefits. etc.

As for the church, that's another issue. My husband was on the committee to determine policy for our church. A Presbyterian church in California. This was after same sex weddings became legal in CA, but were NOT legal by the Presbyterian church. Do we have a policy of
- "no", under any circumstances.
- "yes", church property, not church ministers
- "no wedding", but "commitment ceremonies"
- "wedding"

Keep in mind that the minister of our church feels very strongly about this position, but could actually lose his position as a minister in the Presbyterian church. He compares it to the ordination of black ministers. Something that was opposed, but now simply exists. He feels that it is inevitable and that we as a congregations should be on the leading edge to support people.

Balance that with the needs of the church itself - membership and members who would actually leave the church. NONE of whom are personally affected if the church allows same sex weddings.
05/31/2009
Contributor: Rose Unlocked Rose Unlocked
I am all for it I don't see why it just has to be m/f. Really seeing as some m/m or f/f couples have been together a lot longer then some m/f marriages last.
06/01/2009
Contributor: Femme Mystique Femme Mystique
I'm interested to know why those who answered "no" chose that answer. I don't see any comments from that group.
06/02/2009
Contributor: Carrie Ann Carrie Ann
Quote:
Originally posted by Femme Mystique
I'm interested to know why those who answered "no" chose that answer. I don't see any comments from that group.
I didn't expect there to be. It's a hot topic and putting an unpopular opinion out there often makes tempers flare and arguments get ugly.

In fact, that's why I left the poll anonymous.
06/02/2009
Contributor: Femme Mystique Femme Mystique
Quote:
Originally posted by Carrie Ann
I didn't expect there to be. It's a hot topic and putting an unpopular opinion out there often makes tempers flare and arguments get ugly.

In fact, that's why I left the poll anonymous.
Sure, I get that. I just like to try to understand better why people feel that way.
06/02/2009
Contributor: Lara Lara
I don't blame people here who are against gay marriage for not wanting to discuss their position when they're in such a minority. I think that the most common personal/religious reasons people give are: 1) the term "marriage" has a very specific meaning of a union between a man and a woman and there are religious/personal objections to that; and 2) allowing gay marriage would be saying that we as a society approve of homosexuality.
06/02/2009
Contributor: Luscious Lily Luscious Lily
Though I'm not directly affected by whether or not homosexual marriages are legal and/or are permitted by various sects and religions, I guess you could say I'm collaterally affected. My cousin and her girlfriend, who live in California, won't be able to get married now. Also, my father is beginning the transition to female. (he asked to be my "father" instead of "mother" still for now, hence the noun used) When the transition is done, my parents' marriage will be a homosexual one. While the state we live in won't invalidate their marriage once the transition is done (this may no longer be true if we move), our church most likely will, and religion is very important to my parents.

As a Methodist, I'd like to clear up the comment Backseat Boohoo made, but with the preface that it is not intended as an attack or to start an argument, but as a lament about the denomination in which I was raised.

The official position is that the United Methodist Church supports homosexuals being part of the congregation, partaking in sacraments and activities, and supports the civil rights of homosexual individuals, but Methodist ministers aren't allowed to perform gay marriages, such marriages may not be performed in Methodist churches, and homosexuals may not be ordained. Some congregations and ministers are willing to break these rules and perform gay marriages, but these marriages are unfortunately not accepted by the whole Methodist church, and can cost the minister in question his or her position and even ordination. (There are a few congregations who get around this by hiring a minister from a denomination allowing gay marriage to be on staff, who then performs the ceremony just outside the church building, with the methodist minister overseeing from the church steps)

There is a growing number of congregations in favor of overthrowing this official position, but no such measure has successfully been passed. Unfortunately, in practice many Methodist congregations aren't nearly as accepting as they are asked to be, even without allowing marriages. We are asked to accept them as individuals, not "abusing" them for their sexual orientations, but I have seen more than one homosexual couple and individual driven from the congregation I grew up in. This same congregation, of which my parents have been an active part for almost 20 years, would have a fast and harsh backlash if they found out that my father will someday be a woman.

For those not interested in the politics of a particular denomination of a religion notorious for its bigotry, I apologize for this long post. And if you couldn't tell, my answer to the poll is that I'm all for same sex marriages, in personal, religious, financial, and legal arenas.
06/02/2009