For a while, actually too long, I was brainwashed by 2nd wave feminism theory, and was "offended" by the word "Bitch." Of course, in that form of mind EVERYTHING offended me! I was beginning to think that my sexual fantasies were politically incorrect, so I tried to change them, resulting in lackluster sex, I began to believe virtually every man was a predator set on raping me or at least "keeping me down"

When I had my first baby, I realized the 2nd Wave Feminism has COMPLETELY forgone the idea of Motherhood as a worthy thing to do with one's times, and ignored the proper care and feeding of children so one can do "better things" with ones time than care for their infants, either not having children, or letting strangers raise them. And I also began to re-believe that things like the idea that there are men who really do love us and care about us, and we don't need to be on the offense occurred to me. It was probably more the complete ignoring of Motherhood and it's power and neccesity that turned me off of this type of feminism, but when I became a mother, I couldn't bring the two together, because I KNEW my kids were more important than my "personal career goals" and that in order to take care of them properly, and be a good partner to My Man I was going to run afoul of most Feminist Thought.

So, I had to again, change the way I looked at the world and change the way I looked at people and language. And, with that, I started my POST Feminist Age, I started using the word "bitch" not as an insult, but as a way of reclaiming MY way of doing things (because I AM "a bitch") and being true to myself. I also reclaimed words like "slut" as I saw my Gay friends reclaiming "dyke" "fag" "femme" "fruit" and other words which were once used as insults.

There is also no way I could have balanced this kind of feminist thought with our sex life, which is strongly inclined towards Power Play and D/S fantasy and play.

Your mileage may vary. less

Thanks, Blinker!

And as for hating feminism, I think the theories do have something good to offer. There are LOTS of different types of feminism (i.e. - Marxist, Third World Women, lesbian, political, etc.). But I do think that some of it borders on hetero-hatred and sexism towards males. So, I'm very cautious that I don't buy into any one school of thought without investigating it completely. less

If your feminist beliefs got in the way of BDSM play, then you failed to understand canon feminist theory. Same goes with being at odds with men. The work we do also helps men, not to mention the many male feminists working with us.

Feminism is about choice. The second wave made the mistake of focusing on women who chose to work, and we've moved on since it ended (late seventies/early eighties). We also fight for many rights for mothers and housewives - such as the right to no-fault divorce, medical care for your children, the right to choose where and how to give birth (refusing cesarean, etc.), and benefits and employment opportunities for divorced housewives.

Only from an extremely privileged vantage point can you assume most women can just choose whether to work or stay home. The vast majority of the population can't feed their family on a single income. We fought (and still fight) for equal access to jobs and education, equal pay, childcare options, maternity/paternity leave, and respect and safety at the workplace.

Also, reclaiming words is a poor strategy because instead of just normalizing the word, it normalizes misogyny as well. less

If your feminist beliefs got in the way of BDSM play, then you failed to understand canon feminist theory. Same goes with being at odds with men. The work we do also helps men, not to mention the many male feminists working with us.

Feminism is about choice. The second wave made the mistake of focusing on women who chose to work, and we've moved on since it ended (late seventies/early eighties). We also fight for many rights for mothers and housewives - such as the right to no-fault divorce, medical care for your children, the right to choose where and how to give birth (refusing cesarean, etc.), and benefits and employment opportunities for divorced housewives.

Only from an extremely privileged vantage point can you assume most women can just choose whether to work or stay home. The vast majority of the population can't feed their family on a single income. We fought (and still fight) for equal access to jobs and education, equal pay, childcare options, maternity/paternity leave, and respect and safety at the workplace.

Also, reclaiming words is a poor strategy because instead of just normalizing the word, it normalizes misogyny as well. less

Prax I saw one thing I still needed to comment on (I hope it is seen in the freindly manner it is intended )

You said: "If your feminist beliefs got in the way of BDSM play, then you failed to understand canon feminist theory. Same goes with being at odds with men. The work we do also helps men, not to mention the many male feminists working with us." I don't think I misunderstood anything, as when I learned "Feminism" all there was was 1st wave and 2nd wave and from the meetings and encounter groups and magazines and underground 'zines where I learned MY canon, porn was ALWAYS against women, men were often seen as the enemy (unless they were "male feminist" and in 20 years I didn't see one that fit the mold we were instructed to look for) Motherhood was seen as a waste of time, and yes, they made mistakes. But, I came of age in that Age, and that is what I learned, and I still feel the way I do, based much on the mistakes made by everything from "The Female Eunuch" to the idea that "housewives are unfulfilled, valium addicted nuts who live for their children and nothing else and need to be PUSHED into the workforce." Sex and men, taken as they ARE, (meaning realizing they don't think, act or behave like women and appreciating that difference) were all but forgotten in Second Wave and for that, (and the Motherhood thing) I can't reconcile it.

Yes, many women have NO CHOICE but to work. But, isn't Second Wave (despite it claims of "choice of lifestyle and careers) to blame for that?

Believe me, Post Feminism is not always a comfortable place to be. But, I can't see any other way for me to live at this point in my life.

As always, I respect others views, I certainly don't usually call women "Bitch" in a mean way, (it's usually part of my sick sense of humor) and of course your mileage has the right to vary.

We are not static beings, we are changing and dynamic, and sometimes taking "what works" from what we learned at one point and rejecting a lot of the rest of it is what propels us forward and keeps us fresh.

I RESPECT your viewpoint and totally understand it.

Peace, sister. less

Bitch is a slur, just like n*gger and f*ggot. Some are directed at non-whites, some at women, some at queer or disabled folks or any other oppressed group.

"It's just a joke" and "I'm reclaiming it" are not excuses. Nor are, "but women/black people say it, too!" If you use it casually, you are making the climate more acceptable who do mean it. It's called casual racism/sexism/etc.

Now, before people get all up in arms, I'm not advocating censorship or making certain words illegal. I just think that anyone who cares about the people around them should make the decision to not used privileged language. I am still working on not using "gay" and "retarded" as synonyms for bad. less

I am very much in Prax' camp. I (as am I'm sure many here) have been called many a colorful name because of my skin, or my sex; my education, my sexual orientation, or my... you know, I've heard it all. Just because I know how to deal with those words doesn't make it alright for them to have been said in the first place. Most of the time it isn't my dismay at the word itself, but the ignorance/hate that it came from. Smiling or laughing doesn't take those past experiences away.

I don't know where 'bitch' falls on the Great Scale of Profanity. I do use it, however rarely, but in the same way I apply caution to any type of name-calling: at the action and not the person (i.e., she ACTS like a bitch; she isn't one).

I try not to get too comfortable with any words that I'd have a problem saying to a stranger, or family member, or friend. It isn't a matter of censorship for me, either; only respect for those present and for myself at not having to rely on them. less

YES!

I swear like a sailor and use bitch all the bloody time in reference to just about everything. It's usually either playful or derogatory. If I'm using bitch (or any other word) in a degrading or derogatory way, there will be no doubt about it. It's all about tone and inflection. less

Bitch is a slur, just like n*gger and f*ggot. Some are directed at non-whites, some at women, some at queer or disabled folks or any other oppressed group.

"It's just a joke" and "I'm reclaiming it" are not excuses. Nor are, "but women/black people say it, too!" If you use it casually, you are making the climate more acceptable who do mean it. It's called casual racism/sexism/etc.

Now, before people get all up in arms, I'm not advocating censorship or making certain words illegal. I just think that anyone who cares about the people around them should make the decision to not used privileged language. I am still working on not using "gay" and "retarded" as synonyms for bad. less

I understand what you are saying Prax. I agree with a lot of feminist theory, just that Motherhood has been forgotten, a woman's choice to raise her own children was disparaged ("if you were a real women, you wouldn't waste your education and your time on children" I'm not making that up. People have SAID IT to me.) and breastfeeding and Attachment Parenting is all but ignored by Second Wave Feminism.

I considered myself a feminist for a LONG time, was a charter member of MS when they regrouped as a non commercial magazine, did papers for it in college, sat in encounter groups, I just have been THROUGH it, and I feel I am Post Feminist at this point.

Yes, women have been gained many things that were denied them, but we also lost something in the bargain, we were told, "Go out and 'get a job' (meaning career) and the Men will help around the house, raise the kids, and you'll have more money, and you will have EVERYTHING you want. You can have it all." NOTHING is farther from the truth.

Now we work as many hours outside the house as men, still have the main child care role, come home from work with a FULL LOAD of childcare and housework, and it has been proven that most men do no more than they did in 50 years ago. I mean in terms of child care and housework. I AM NOT disrespecting the men at all, my Dad and many other men changed diapers, did the laundry and the cooking and the ironing etc, even back in the 60s and before, but we DIDN'T GET what we were promised. We just have kids who are raised by strangers or we are insulted for "wasting" our education and taking advantage of our men if we DO make the sacrifice to stay home. I've done both (worked with small kids and stayed home) and 2nd Wave did NOTHING for women who CHOOSE and sacrificed to raise their own kids, or even have a "traditional" relationship with our men.

I am aware that some women have no choice but to "work" but 2nd Wave seemed to promise us all "Rewarding careers" when most of us are just doing "jobs" to make ends meet. THAT wasn't what was being talked about at the sit ins and the meetings in the 70s (I know, because I was THERE!) We were bamboozled and although I admit that the right to vote and the ability to have a career (if you have the MONEY for a decent education) was gained, most middle class, lower middle class and even poor women were simply pushed into the work force, against their will. We didn't get "everything" promised us, the price of things just went UP to make up for families making two incomes and we ended up with little or no advantages at all, and many of our kids ended up worse off.

Most women now have TWO lives and are enjoying neither of them. Most women now have "jobs" not rewarding "careers" (like we were promised, if we'd only either not have kids or just leaven them with someone and "work" as if we weren't already doing that!) A "job" isn't a career and only the already wealthy and maybe some of the working poor really benefited from 2nd wave. (and although that's good, most of us don't belong to either class. And not that long ago, many of the poor could stay home with their kids, but welfare reform, sparked by second wave theory, also sparked the "why can't they just get jobs?" debate and Public Aid was denied many women who previously WERE taking care of their own children.)

Prax, I like your post a lot. You and I usually agree on things, in fact 10-15 years ago, I was saying EXACTLY what you were saying. I could have written that post myself, when I was in my early 20s. But, I've since learned that we got little from the bargain, except the economy crumbling and our kids being left with others and working as hard as a man in the workplace and THEN coming home to a filthy house, the laundry, our kids missing us and learning things WE didn't teach them and CONSTANT exhaustion.

I used to say the SAME EXACT THINGS about "reclaiming words" (I didn't believe in it) and NOW I realized there IS a power to it. I no longer see misogyny behind every bush, (although it certainly exists in a lot of places) and I think we are thinking along the same lines, but I am about 15 to 20 years past where you are now. That isn't bad, for either of us it's just evolution of thought and life. I couldn't have got to where I am now, if I hadn't gone through it.

20 years ago, I would have disagreed with the posts I have made on this thread. Really.

But, I've moved beyond it (and that doesn't mean that I didn't grow when I was more of a "Feminist") and yes, I DO strongly believe in reclaiming a LOT of things that were once seen as insults, putdowns or seen as not worth our time (like, say, raising our own kids and taking care of our man/partner.)

As I said, your mileage may vary. Mine did, not that long ago. less

And also, P'Gell, there are manymanymany feminists that think policing your sexual fantasies and trying to make them egalitarian when what you REALLY want is hot, dirty D/s stuff? Is the OPPOSITE of feminism. Again, I am a feminist, and I think women making choices about their sexuality, living their fantasies (no matter WHAT they are, as long as they are consensual) and fucking ENJOYING sex are fucking critical to the empowerment of women! less

Oh, yes, that is what I have done. The "egalitarian fantasy" thing just didn't work out for me. I wanna be a Bottom! That's what works for us, but didn't in the 1st and 2nd waves where I learned my canon (perhaps I took it too seriously or by the book. The whole "everything offended me at that point" was not an exaggeration. I have SO chilled out since then. BUT, I needed the education and have learned and grown with and since it.)


I also (per you post above) have NOT given up on Feminism completely, which is why I use the term "Post Feminist." I've learned and gained a hell of a lot from some parts of feminism, and also found things that I needed to reject. So, just like my upbringing, my college education, my life experiences, I have taken what works and left the rest.

I think you understand what I said about reclaiming words and empowerment. Don't worry, I haven't given up, I just need to make my own way, in my own Post Feminist Time.

This is a really fucking good discussion, I have to say that!!!! less