I too believe life starts at conception and I'm pro-choice.
When does human life begin?
Cat E.
09/16/2012
If it can die, then it's alive. I don't see it as anymore complicated than that. Whether or not you want to call it a "person" or "autonomous," then that's a different issue...
09/16/2012
I think when its capable of surviving outside it's mother.
09/16/2012
Quote:
Neuro Major here: just throwing out science
Originally posted by
Zandrock
Once it develops a nervous system. We do not care about killing plants because they cannot feel their death. I think the same holds true for a fetus. Once it has a developed nervous system then it is a person.
The fetus starts developing its nervous system (NS) around week 3. Brain waves can be picked up around 1.5 months. The nervous system is one of the first systems to start developing in utero.
This is all within the time a woman doesn't even know she's pregnant (this is also the worst time to have consumed alcohol, but again, a lot of ladies don't know they're carrying yet).
At what point, specifically, would you consider life? The beginning of NS development? The end? Or a point in between?
Just curious!
09/16/2012
I'm not specifically trying to debate abortion, but to find out when most people believe human life truly begins. Most people my age, when finding out I'm pro-life automatically assume that I'm a religious zealot, as opposed to a libertarian idealist philosophically opposed to taking any life that is not directly threatening your own. I began asking the people who chose to attack me instead of trying to find out the basis of my beliefs when they believed human life truly began, and found that many of them had never considered it very deeply.
No matter what your personal position, bio-ethical matters have an extremely important place in the law, and will continue having a more important place as we make more and more discoveries. One of the most important questions of bio-ethics is when does human life end (at what point is, say, turning off life support not an ethical violation), so why shouldn't when human life begins be an equally important question and worthy of consideration without raising hackles?
No matter what your personal position, bio-ethical matters have an extremely important place in the law, and will continue having a more important place as we make more and more discoveries. One of the most important questions of bio-ethics is when does human life end (at what point is, say, turning off life support not an ethical violation), so why shouldn't when human life begins be an equally important question and worthy of consideration without raising hackles?
09/16/2012
Quote:
Even one day before she's due?
Originally posted by
Ansley
No one will ever be able to convince me that as long as the fetus is in the mother that she has no right to determine whether or not to terminate the pregnancy.
I'm not talking about throwing herself down the stairs, I'm talking legal ... more
I'm not talking about throwing herself down the stairs, I'm talking legal ... more
No one will ever be able to convince me that as long as the fetus is in the mother that she has no right to determine whether or not to terminate the pregnancy.
I'm not talking about throwing herself down the stairs, I'm talking legal and medically safe abortion. less
I'm not talking about throwing herself down the stairs, I'm talking legal and medically safe abortion. less
09/17/2012
Quote:
How so? Is the embryo not an individual with a unique set of DNA? Is that not the definition of "life"?
Originally posted by
amazon
The notion that life begins at conception is so ridiculous.
09/17/2012
Quote:
I love this post. Regardless of my view, I just like putting some science in
Originally posted by
bayosgirl
How so? Is the embryo not an individual with a unique set of DNA? Is that not the definition of "life"?
In biology, the definition of life is an organism that can die, grow, respond to stimuli, adapt, have a metabolism, and can maintain homeostasis, or the ability to balance its body system.
In utero, the fetus does not completely maintain its own body balances, the mother does. Also, it's true that fetuses, after some development, have the ability to respond to stimuli. However, it depends on how you define that part of life. A brain dead person can still have a knee jerk reflex, which is responding to stimuli, but for almost all intents and purposes, is not longer "alive." Depending on how far along the fetus is, this response to stimuli does not mean a higher form of brain functioning.
The fetus does grow and can technically adapt. A fetus has ways to try and stay in the womb and even trick the mother's body. For example, the fetus, even if not doing so well, will still output human growth hormone, which is what the mother's body detects to determine to keep the pregnancy or not.
I guess, given the definitions, a fetus functions more like a parasite. It depends on its host or it will die.
Usually in defining life, the organisms must have all these characteristics to be alive. I think it shows that the fetus does not contain certain characteristics until certain times in gestation.
Sorry to nerd out; having a unique set of DNA is not the definition of life. A lot of people don't have unique DNA. Just check out all those identical twins!
Good conversation, folks!
09/17/2012
Quote:
Ah, good point there about identical twins. I guess I meant unique to the mother's DNA. You are right, an embryo or fetus is technically a parasite. It depends on the mother to survive, and doesn't contribute anything to her survival or health-in fact, it can drain her nutritional resources. I still believe it's a life. It has all the genetic ingredients to become a baby, a child, and so on. I do acquiesce that, at least to a certain point, the decision to keep that life or not should be the mother's, since it is dependent on her.
Originally posted by
Mwar
I love this post. Regardless of my view, I just like putting some science in
In biology, the definition of life is an organism that can die, grow, respond to stimuli, adapt, have a metabolism, and can maintain homeostasis, or the ability to ... more
In biology, the definition of life is an organism that can die, grow, respond to stimuli, adapt, have a metabolism, and can maintain homeostasis, or the ability to ... more
I love this post. Regardless of my view, I just like putting some science in
In biology, the definition of life is an organism that can die, grow, respond to stimuli, adapt, have a metabolism, and can maintain homeostasis, or the ability to balance its body system.
In utero, the fetus does not completely maintain its own body balances, the mother does. Also, it's true that fetuses, after some development, have the ability to respond to stimuli. However, it depends on how you define that part of life. A brain dead person can still have a knee jerk reflex, which is responding to stimuli, but for almost all intents and purposes, is not longer "alive." Depending on how far along the fetus is, this response to stimuli does not mean a higher form of brain functioning.
The fetus does grow and can technically adapt. A fetus has ways to try and stay in the womb and even trick the mother's body. For example, the fetus, even if not doing so well, will still output human growth hormone, which is what the mother's body detects to determine to keep the pregnancy or not.
I guess, given the definitions, a fetus functions more like a parasite. It depends on its host or it will die.
Usually in defining life, the organisms must have all these characteristics to be alive. I think it shows that the fetus does not contain certain characteristics until certain times in gestation.
Sorry to nerd out; having a unique set of DNA is not the definition of life. A lot of people don't have unique DNA. Just check out all those identical twins!
Good conversation, folks! less
In biology, the definition of life is an organism that can die, grow, respond to stimuli, adapt, have a metabolism, and can maintain homeostasis, or the ability to balance its body system.
In utero, the fetus does not completely maintain its own body balances, the mother does. Also, it's true that fetuses, after some development, have the ability to respond to stimuli. However, it depends on how you define that part of life. A brain dead person can still have a knee jerk reflex, which is responding to stimuli, but for almost all intents and purposes, is not longer "alive." Depending on how far along the fetus is, this response to stimuli does not mean a higher form of brain functioning.
The fetus does grow and can technically adapt. A fetus has ways to try and stay in the womb and even trick the mother's body. For example, the fetus, even if not doing so well, will still output human growth hormone, which is what the mother's body detects to determine to keep the pregnancy or not.
I guess, given the definitions, a fetus functions more like a parasite. It depends on its host or it will die.
Usually in defining life, the organisms must have all these characteristics to be alive. I think it shows that the fetus does not contain certain characteristics until certain times in gestation.
Sorry to nerd out; having a unique set of DNA is not the definition of life. A lot of people don't have unique DNA. Just check out all those identical twins!
Good conversation, folks! less
09/17/2012
Quote:
I have some reservations with this: A fetus has ways to try and stay in the womb and even trick the mother's body. For example, the fetus, even if not doing so well, will still output human growth hormone, which is what the mother's body detects to determine to keep the pregnancy or not.
Originally posted by
Mwar
I love this post. Regardless of my view, I just like putting some science in
In biology, the definition of life is an organism that can die, grow, respond to stimuli, adapt, have a metabolism, and can maintain homeostasis, or the ability to ... more
In biology, the definition of life is an organism that can die, grow, respond to stimuli, adapt, have a metabolism, and can maintain homeostasis, or the ability to ... more
I love this post. Regardless of my view, I just like putting some science in
In biology, the definition of life is an organism that can die, grow, respond to stimuli, adapt, have a metabolism, and can maintain homeostasis, or the ability to balance its body system.
In utero, the fetus does not completely maintain its own body balances, the mother does. Also, it's true that fetuses, after some development, have the ability to respond to stimuli. However, it depends on how you define that part of life. A brain dead person can still have a knee jerk reflex, which is responding to stimuli, but for almost all intents and purposes, is not longer "alive." Depending on how far along the fetus is, this response to stimuli does not mean a higher form of brain functioning.
The fetus does grow and can technically adapt. A fetus has ways to try and stay in the womb and even trick the mother's body. For example, the fetus, even if not doing so well, will still output human growth hormone, which is what the mother's body detects to determine to keep the pregnancy or not.
I guess, given the definitions, a fetus functions more like a parasite. It depends on its host or it will die.
Usually in defining life, the organisms must have all these characteristics to be alive. I think it shows that the fetus does not contain certain characteristics until certain times in gestation.
Sorry to nerd out; having a unique set of DNA is not the definition of life. A lot of people don't have unique DNA. Just check out all those identical twins!
Good conversation, folks! less
In biology, the definition of life is an organism that can die, grow, respond to stimuli, adapt, have a metabolism, and can maintain homeostasis, or the ability to balance its body system.
In utero, the fetus does not completely maintain its own body balances, the mother does. Also, it's true that fetuses, after some development, have the ability to respond to stimuli. However, it depends on how you define that part of life. A brain dead person can still have a knee jerk reflex, which is responding to stimuli, but for almost all intents and purposes, is not longer "alive." Depending on how far along the fetus is, this response to stimuli does not mean a higher form of brain functioning.
The fetus does grow and can technically adapt. A fetus has ways to try and stay in the womb and even trick the mother's body. For example, the fetus, even if not doing so well, will still output human growth hormone, which is what the mother's body detects to determine to keep the pregnancy or not.
I guess, given the definitions, a fetus functions more like a parasite. It depends on its host or it will die.
Usually in defining life, the organisms must have all these characteristics to be alive. I think it shows that the fetus does not contain certain characteristics until certain times in gestation.
Sorry to nerd out; having a unique set of DNA is not the definition of life. A lot of people don't have unique DNA. Just check out all those identical twins!
Good conversation, folks! less
I work in Maternal Infant health. I see miscarriages and preterm births regularly. Often, these "tricks" either don't work, or are simply not there.
In fact, in a healthy woman, her body has the ability to detect things like chromosomal anomalies and cause a miscarriage. Women who miscarry are actually LESS likely to give birth to a live (or dead) infant with a chromosomal anomaly, as her body detected it early and rejected it.
Some women's bodies don't detect serious issues, and don't easily miscarry and these women often end up with tragic pregnancy outcomes, or find out during fetal testing (if they choose to have it) but we don't know WHY some women's bodies are better at detecting anomalies and problems that are incompatible with life and some aren't.
09/17/2012
I believe it starts at conception because they are their own person. They have their own DNA and traits from a mother and father.
09/17/2012
Quote:
I believe it is when there is brain function. Too many conceptions are botched and lost for me to believe that it begins at conception...not all conceived pregnancies will result in live and healthy birth.
Originally posted by
hyacinthgirl
So the opposite side of the pro-choice coin, and one that is usually glossed over. At what point does human life actually begin?
I consider myself a practical pro-lifer, and as I'm not particularly religious, I 'm pro-life as a ... more
I consider myself a practical pro-lifer, and as I'm not particularly religious, I 'm pro-life as a ... more
So the opposite side of the pro-choice coin, and one that is usually glossed over. At what point does human life actually begin?
I consider myself a practical pro-lifer, and as I'm not particularly religious, I 'm pro-life as a matter of bio-ethics and libertarian ideals not to take the life of another human being, because I honestly do not know when life begins. I tend to lean towards when an independent brain is formed, but I am worried that reveals my own bias towards intelligence as a basis for humanity, and that that could be used as an excuse to remove human rights from those deemed mentally unfit. less
I consider myself a practical pro-lifer, and as I'm not particularly religious, I 'm pro-life as a matter of bio-ethics and libertarian ideals not to take the life of another human being, because I honestly do not know when life begins. I tend to lean towards when an independent brain is formed, but I am worried that reveals my own bias towards intelligence as a basis for humanity, and that that could be used as an excuse to remove human rights from those deemed mentally unfit. less
09/17/2012
Quote:
From an evolutionary perspective, the fetus wants to survive. The placenta sends chemical signals to the receiver, the mother. A lot of these signals communicate fetal vigor. If these signals fall below a certain threshold, this is one of the ways miscarriage can ensue. Usually the drop in hormone output (signals) is due to an abnormality/defect that would cause the fetus not to be viable. So defect/abnormality causes drop in placental output which equals miscarriage.
Originally posted by
P'Gell
I have some reservations with this: A fetus has ways to try and stay in the womb and even trick the mother's body. For example, the fetus, even if not doing so well, will still output human growth hormone, which is what the mother's body
...
more
I have some reservations with this: A fetus has ways to try and stay in the womb and even trick the mother's body. For example, the fetus, even if not doing so well, will still output human growth hormone, which is what the mother's body detects to determine to keep the pregnancy or not.
I work in Maternal Infant health. I see miscarriages and preterm births regularly. Often, these "tricks" either don't work, or are simply not there.
In fact, in a healthy woman, her body has the ability to detect things like chromosomal anomalies and cause a miscarriage. Women who miscarry are actually LESS likely to give birth to a live (or dead) infant with a chromosomal anomaly, as her body detected it early and rejected it.
Some women's bodies don't detect serious issues, and don't easily miscarry and these women often end up with tragic pregnancy outcomes, or find out during fetal testing (if they choose to have it) but we don't know WHY some women's bodies are better at detecting anomalies and problems that are incompatible with life and some aren't. less
I work in Maternal Infant health. I see miscarriages and preterm births regularly. Often, these "tricks" either don't work, or are simply not there.
In fact, in a healthy woman, her body has the ability to detect things like chromosomal anomalies and cause a miscarriage. Women who miscarry are actually LESS likely to give birth to a live (or dead) infant with a chromosomal anomaly, as her body detected it early and rejected it.
Some women's bodies don't detect serious issues, and don't easily miscarry and these women often end up with tragic pregnancy outcomes, or find out during fetal testing (if they choose to have it) but we don't know WHY some women's bodies are better at detecting anomalies and problems that are incompatible with life and some aren't. less
I was simplifying before, but was trying to say that a fetus and mother are not exactly cooperative during pregnancy. The fetus and its genes will select for the situation that best benefits it (such as increased nutrient flow, for example). A mother's genes and body respond to the fetus with counter measures that limit the actions of the fetus. It doesn't make it cooperative as much as a compromise. Maternal-fetal conflict studies tend to show that the fetus and mother have "chemical battles", as you will. This can also be what changes the ability for a mother to detect an abnormal pregnancy since the fetus wants to survive.
Some sources:
Genetic Conflicts in Human Pregnancy
Another one
09/17/2012
Well just a side note, I'm not really sure what you mean by "Once it is capable of survival outside the mother", but at our end of the evolutionary process, modern day homo sapiens, human babies are born about a year before they can survive on their own, so are you asking when it's a year old? But to answer your question, I believe life begins at conception.
-source: Physical Anthropology class where we studied in depth the evolutionary process and my professor found one of the key australopithecines
-source: Physical Anthropology class where we studied in depth the evolutionary process and my professor found one of the key australopithecines
09/17/2012
By survival outside the mother, I mean when it is biologically viable - all organs functioning to the point that if it was not abandoned or exposed, it would live completely independently of the mother if removed.
09/17/2012
I would say once its developed some feelings or a brain haha. not when its a fetus tho
09/17/2012
This is a tough one! I've read everyones opinions and it's really interesting to see what you all think. Me personally... I'm not 100% sure where I would draw the line. I'm honestly confused! All I can say is that in my opinion a "baby" only counts as it's own seperate person if it can live outside of the womb, even with the help of doctors/nurses/medical equipment ect. If it can't survive outside the womb at all no matter what (early stages) I personally don't consider it as being a seperate living human being because it can't survive and you can't save it no matter what the docs/nurses try to do. So I guess I'd consider "human life" (human, as in a seperate being with rights to live ect.) to begin when the baby is developed just enough and strong enough to survive outside the mother even with medical help.
I believe that women should have the right to choose if they want an abortion or not at any time during the pregnancy, even up to the end. Now, if I got pregnant and wanted to get an abortion I would do it as early as possible because to me the earlier the better. I'm not a big fan of waiting towards the end of the pregnancy to make such a big decision. If I was too far along to really consider an abortion I would just go with it because I personally don't like the thought of abortions so close to when the baby is going to be born. BUT I do think it's a personal choice and I'm not the one to tell other women what they should or shouldn't do. I don't believe that anyone should be making the choice other than the woman as long as the baby is inside of her body. It's such a personal thing. I don't know everyone's circumstances. I guess I just can't think of a scenario of why you would stay pregnant for so long (near the end of the pregnancy) and then make the decision to get an abortion. I think it's something that should already be discussed and thought out before it even happens. That's just me.
I hope that makes sense. This is tough!
I believe that women should have the right to choose if they want an abortion or not at any time during the pregnancy, even up to the end. Now, if I got pregnant and wanted to get an abortion I would do it as early as possible because to me the earlier the better. I'm not a big fan of waiting towards the end of the pregnancy to make such a big decision. If I was too far along to really consider an abortion I would just go with it because I personally don't like the thought of abortions so close to when the baby is going to be born. BUT I do think it's a personal choice and I'm not the one to tell other women what they should or shouldn't do. I don't believe that anyone should be making the choice other than the woman as long as the baby is inside of her body. It's such a personal thing. I don't know everyone's circumstances. I guess I just can't think of a scenario of why you would stay pregnant for so long (near the end of the pregnancy) and then make the decision to get an abortion. I think it's something that should already be discussed and thought out before it even happens. That's just me.
I hope that makes sense. This is tough!
09/17/2012
not at conception.
09/18/2012
The egg and semen are already alive, and so the embryo is also alive at the point of conception onward.
However, that has nothing to do with whether abortion should be allowed. Simply being alive does not mean that something has feelings, thoughts, the ability to feel pain, or rights -- and certainly not the right to override the pregnant person's own desires.
However, that has nothing to do with whether abortion should be allowed. Simply being alive does not mean that something has feelings, thoughts, the ability to feel pain, or rights -- and certainly not the right to override the pregnant person's own desires.
09/27/2012
Quote:
Then when does it begin to have rights?
Originally posted by
glitterbombs
The egg and semen are already alive, and so the embryo is also alive at the point of conception onward.
However, that has nothing to do with whether abortion should be allowed. Simply being alive does not mean that something has feelings, ... more
However, that has nothing to do with whether abortion should be allowed. Simply being alive does not mean that something has feelings, ... more
The egg and semen are already alive, and so the embryo is also alive at the point of conception onward.
However, that has nothing to do with whether abortion should be allowed. Simply being alive does not mean that something has feelings, thoughts, the ability to feel pain, or rights -- and certainly not the right to override the pregnant person's own desires. less
However, that has nothing to do with whether abortion should be allowed. Simply being alive does not mean that something has feelings, thoughts, the ability to feel pain, or rights -- and certainly not the right to override the pregnant person's own desires. less
09/27/2012
Quote:
honestly for me its at conception
Originally posted by
hyacinthgirl
So the opposite side of the pro-choice coin, and one that is usually glossed over. At what point does human life actually begin?
I consider myself a practical pro-lifer, and as I'm not particularly religious, I 'm pro-life as a ... more
I consider myself a practical pro-lifer, and as I'm not particularly religious, I 'm pro-life as a ... more
So the opposite side of the pro-choice coin, and one that is usually glossed over. At what point does human life actually begin?
I consider myself a practical pro-lifer, and as I'm not particularly religious, I 'm pro-life as a matter of bio-ethics and libertarian ideals not to take the life of another human being, because I honestly do not know when life begins. I tend to lean towards when an independent brain is formed, but I am worried that reveals my own bias towards intelligence as a basis for humanity, and that that could be used as an excuse to remove human rights from those deemed mentally unfit. less
I consider myself a practical pro-lifer, and as I'm not particularly religious, I 'm pro-life as a matter of bio-ethics and libertarian ideals not to take the life of another human being, because I honestly do not know when life begins. I tend to lean towards when an independent brain is formed, but I am worried that reveals my own bias towards intelligence as a basis for humanity, and that that could be used as an excuse to remove human rights from those deemed mentally unfit. less
09/29/2012
I don't believe there is a fine line we can draw for when a fetus is 'fully human'. Any point we draw will be at least partially arbitrary, but drawing some point is necessary but there is no way someone is going to convince me that a zygote is fully human, deserving of the same rights as an adult.
09/30/2012
unsure
09/30/2012
Quote:
Then when does it have rights? When is a human a human?
Originally posted by
<3BF
I don't believe there is a fine line we can draw for when a fetus is 'fully human'. Any point we draw will be at least partially arbitrary, but drawing some point is necessary but there is no way someone is going to convince me that a
...
more
I don't believe there is a fine line we can draw for when a fetus is 'fully human'. Any point we draw will be at least partially arbitrary, but drawing some point is necessary but there is no way someone is going to convince me that a zygote is fully human, deserving of the same rights as an adult.
less
The old law in England used to be it was not human if any part of it was still inside the mother - a common method of dealing with unwanted children was to slit their throats once the head was out. We've done a lot of soul-searching as a culture as to when life ends, but it doesn't seem that a lot of people do much towards the beginning, which I think is an equally valid question. If it's a moral quandary whether it's euthanasia or Death with Dignity to pull life support on a patient who can not communicate their desires, isn't it an equally valid quandary as to when or whether it is morally and ethically allowable to pull life support on a developing human who can not communicate their desires as well?
I usually just have people get mad at me when I ask these questions, because apparently I'm not supposed to. I'm not sure why, I guess because people who are against abortion are supposed to be religious zealots.
10/01/2012
Quote:
Certianly life begins at conception. It's fair to say it's a human life. Whether or not that human life is a "person" with rights that must be weighed against others - say terminating a pregnancy - is another matter. Calling it a life though doesn't automatically mean it's a person
Originally posted by
hyacinthgirl
So the opposite side of the pro-choice coin, and one that is usually glossed over. At what point does human life actually begin?
I consider myself a practical pro-lifer, and as I'm not particularly religious, I 'm pro-life as a ... more
I consider myself a practical pro-lifer, and as I'm not particularly religious, I 'm pro-life as a ... more
So the opposite side of the pro-choice coin, and one that is usually glossed over. At what point does human life actually begin?
I consider myself a practical pro-lifer, and as I'm not particularly religious, I 'm pro-life as a matter of bio-ethics and libertarian ideals not to take the life of another human being, because I honestly do not know when life begins. I tend to lean towards when an independent brain is formed, but I am worried that reveals my own bias towards intelligence as a basis for humanity, and that that could be used as an excuse to remove human rights from those deemed mentally unfit. less
I consider myself a practical pro-lifer, and as I'm not particularly religious, I 'm pro-life as a matter of bio-ethics and libertarian ideals not to take the life of another human being, because I honestly do not know when life begins. I tend to lean towards when an independent brain is formed, but I am worried that reveals my own bias towards intelligence as a basis for humanity, and that that could be used as an excuse to remove human rights from those deemed mentally unfit. less
10/01/2012
If one would use the same standard that the folks doing the robotic exploration of Mars use, would that be even before the egg is fertilized by the sperm?
Really depends upon one's definition of human life, doesn't it?
Really depends upon one's definition of human life, doesn't it?
03/07/2013
I think it doesn't really begin until it can live on its own outside a uterus.
03/27/2013
Quote:
i agree
Originally posted by
Lildrummrgurl7
I'm completely pro-choice and I think that a fetus could be considered alive once it passes the threshold of viability. If it can not survive outside of the womb, it can't be considered "alive"
03/27/2013
I definitely think it's when it can survive outside of the parent.
03/29/2013
The human brain doesn't begin to form memories until it's about 2 or 3 years old. I am not arguing an agenda or anything political here, but I think that 'awareness' is really when the living matter becomes a human being.
That being said, I am all for a woman's right to chose, and I do not oppose abortion.
That being said, I am all for a woman's right to chose, and I do not oppose abortion.
03/29/2013
Total posts: 60
Unique posters: 45
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