There is no such thing as an "MTF brother." It's MTF sister, and FTM brother. They "prefer" these pronouns because their true gender is not that of their genetics. It isn't a matter of preference, it's a matter of being correct. You wouldn't call a biological male a woman, unless he was a transvestite, transgender, or genderqueer male. So don't call an FTM a woman or a MTF a male - it's just blatantly incorrect.

Do not go to Wikipedia for this information, because only a person who truly is or who knows the issue (or even trans- specific sites) will be able to answer you correctly. less

You should have just referred to him as "he," since that's what he is. It was wrong of you to even doubt or use other fake-pronouns. He is a male, no matter what, and though his anatomy is different from biological males, he's still a male. Refer to him as male and don't even question your pronoun use, since you shouldn't be questioning it in the first place. less

Wow... How did I miss this thread the first time around?

Regardless, I learned a lot by reading through the posts. I am aware of transgendered folks, but I was not aware that there are alternative pronouns for some of them. Most of what I know I gathered from Julie Anne Peters' novel "Luna", in which a girl has to learn how to accept and support her MTF brother. In that book, it is noted that MTF individuals prefer the feminine pronouns while FTM prefer masculine pronouns. Are there special cases in which neither pronoun is acceptable for the individual, so the person chooses this alternative pronoun?

Time to hit the wiki tree and see what falls out! less

I find your admonishment of me extremely offensive. It appears you have not read through the posts of this topic or you would have seen me say (in as many different posts - directly copied and pasted):

1. I deliberately choose to use "hir" and "ze" as alternative pronouns to her/she because my partner is not a woman. I also didn't want to confuse the reader by using him/he immediately following my statements that I used the toy on female anatomy.
2. I use he/him/his on a daily basis when referring to my partner.
3. As I said above, the problem is how to reconcile those male pronouns in REVIEWS with descriptions of toy use on a female body part.
4.I care so much about this person that I want to make sure that not only am I respectful of his preferred references, but also that my readers understand (even just a little bit) that it is possible for a man to have "girly parts."
5.My partner prefers masculine pronouns and, quite frankly, he is a man to me so I automatically use them. The issue that arises here when writing a review is trying to describe a male person with female anatomy...

This post was never about what he should be called. It was about how to refer to my male partner who happens to have female anatomy in relation to describing the use of sex toys in written reviews.

I've NEVER "questioned" what to call him in life. I live with him and he started coming out as transitioning after we met. His struggles with the way other people treat him are part of my daily life. This is something I support him in 100% in every single way he asks and spend hours reading the experiences of others to help me think of more than what he asks to be there for him through this. We live in a little town in East TN and are judged and treated like freaks everywhere we go, but I still introduce him with his male name. I have even gotten into an argument with my best friend because said friend didn't appear to be trying to not use feminine pronouns.

I am far from perfect, but I think that anyone who actually takes the time to read my posts on this subject should be able to see that I only have the best intentions toward him. I could have just done nothing and left him out of my reviews, but why should I have to do that? Instead I started this post which appears to have educated other EF community members.

There have been times when I have disagreed with what others have said on various topics on these forums, but I have never really gotten upset. Congrats on being the first one to really piss me off.


And to everyone ELSE that has posted on here: thank you again for your support and suggestions. less

Whoa. Things have gotten a bit heated here. I think that if I've learned anything from being around the trans community is that our understanding of all these issues is evolving at an amazing rate. Five years ago, only a tiny segment of the trans community even knew what "genderqueer" meant, another big segment thought it was an umbrella term for the transgender community and anotehr big segment had never heard of it. It takes time, especially for a community as decentralized as the trans one, to negotiate language and norms. And even once we do, it's likely that, just as in the queer community and every other one, there will be multiple answers to questions like the one Happy Lady posed in this thread. The truth is that how a trans man is referred to in a post should be up to him, individually.

I think it's worth remembering that there is no right answer to this question-- even if lots of trans men feel a certain way, lots of others don't. I, for instance, have no problem with my brother referring to me as "his sister, who transitioned and now lives as a man." I know that he respects and aknowledges my gender identity and that his reference to me as his sister is purely informative and for the benefit of the listener. less

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I want to address the point of using male pronouns in conjuction with "female" anatomy. I'm reminded of the old joke/riddle about a dad who's son gets into an accident and the dad rushes him to the hospital and the doctor there says "I can't operate, this boy is my son!" Perplexed, people would ask how such a thing was possible. And the shocking surprise was that the doctor was a woman. Of course, that's not even considering the possibility that the boy has two dads.

"His labia" is just the latest of a long line of "confusing" statements. Just as people used to get confused and not understand "She's a doctor" or "his boyfriend" or "he uses a dildo," "his labia" is one that folks are just going to have to get used to. less

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I want to address the point of using male pronouns in conjuction with "female" anatomy. I'm reminded of the old joke/riddle about a dad who's son gets into an accident and the dad rushes him to the hospital and the doctor there says "I can't operate, this boy is my son!" Perplexed, people would ask how such a thing was possible. And the shocking surprise was that the doctor was a woman. Of course, that's not even considering the possibility that the boy has two dads.

"His labia" is just the latest of a long line of "confusing" statements. Just as people used to get confused and not understand "She's a doctor" or "his boyfriend" or "he uses a dildo," "his labia" is one that folks are just going to have to get used to. less

I have to agree with Victoria. I had no idea that there were alternate pronouns available for those folk who prefer not to identify with specific gender...it's not too far away from the problem we poly people have when we have a "legal" spouse and yet another "non-legal" spouse. It sounds so jr. high to say my boyfriend/girlfriend to some people when referring to their significant other...and then again it just gets confusing when you have more than two significant others!
I think having these boards available to help explain to those interested what certain terms are and why they are important will go along way to promoting the type of open discussion and inclusive approach to human sexuality. Thank you Happy Lady for having the courage to begin this discussion I have learned quite a lot today about what challenges you and your partner face. less

I apologize if someone already said this, I only scanned some of the responses.

I feel that people should be able to use whatever pronouns they choose. That said, most people have never heard of the term "ze". Maybe a preface on the review explaining why you're using "ze" would both leave readers who aren't aware of trans issues less confused and imform them about it all at the same time. less

I did read your entire post, I did not mean to offend you. I really wasn't in any way being offensive to you. I also wasn't saying that you questioned his gender. I was saying that you questioned pronoun-use in your reviews, because I do understand what you meant. Hir and ze are third gender pronouns, not trans- pronouns, so that alone gives a misconception to people who are educated on the subject.

What I was telling you was that it shouldn't be in question, because if someone's going to be ignorant and wonder why you're using female-anatomied products on him, then that's their problem, not yours. The information that you just gave me was extremely unnecessary for me or anyone to know. Any transgender or transsexual person has gone through such things. I, for one, have too, so there is no reason to tell me your struggles. I understand. I was just responding and telling you point-blank what you should do.

Your response to me, however, was very offensive and rude. I was not in my post to you. Completely unnecessary. I did respond correctly to your question, so if you think that I didn't, then I apologize. less

Today I submitted a review in which I described the use of a toy on my partner who is FTM. I described using the toy during oral sex, stating:

"It is nice for rubbing the labia/clit of my female-bodied partner, as well as tease HIR g-spot. My partner prefers pulsation to straight vibration patterns, and ZE actually really enjoyed a couple of the pulsation patterns of the Goddess."

I deliberately choose to use "hir" and "ze" as alternative pronouns to her/she because my partner is not a woman. I also didn't want to confuse the reader by using him/he immediately following my statements that I used the toy on female anatomy. When the review was published, my words were changed to "her" and "we", but this post is not to complain about that change.

Instead I request that alternative pronouns be recognized by Eden when submitted in reviews. I would also like to see transgendered people, or their lovers, or just people who understand the nature of alternative pronouns, chime in with other alternative pronouns/suggestions here on this thread.

This could serve to educate so that if a reader sees "hir" in a review, that reader might understand it isn't necessarily a typo.

You see, that may seem like a very little thing to some of you: Being called "he" or "she", but to someone who is called the wrong pronoun on a daily basis it is a very big deal. My partner reads the reviews I write. He already has to deal with the majority of the world calling him "she/her", so it would be nice if here, in a "sex positive community", that could be avoided. less

great idea in theory, difficult in practicality. I want to support trans people as much as possible and be inclusive linguistically. when i write on here, i try to avoid gender-specific nouns whenever possible. trying to implement new vocabulary to the general population when the sheer concept of gender fluidity is foreign to them is a real uphill battle. less

Today I submitted a review in which I described the use of a toy on my partner who is FTM. I described using the toy during oral sex, stating:

"It is nice for rubbing the labia/clit of my female-bodied partner, as well as tease HIR g-spot. My partner prefers pulsation to straight vibration patterns, and ZE actually really enjoyed a couple of the pulsation patterns of the Goddess."

I deliberately choose to use "hir" and "ze" as alternative pronouns to her/she because my partner is not a woman. I also didn't want to confuse the reader by using him/he immediately following my statements that I used the toy on female anatomy. When the review was published, my words were changed to "her" and "we", but this post is not to complain about that change.

Instead I request that alternative pronouns be recognized by Eden when submitted in reviews. I would also like to see transgendered people, or their lovers, or just people who understand the nature of alternative pronouns, chime in with other alternative pronouns/suggestions here on this thread.

This could serve to educate so that if a reader sees "hir" in a review, that reader might understand it isn't necessarily a typo.

You see, that may seem like a very little thing to some of you: Being called "he" or "she", but to someone who is called the wrong pronoun on a daily basis it is a very big deal. My partner reads the reviews I write. He already has to deal with the majority of the world calling him "she/her", so it would be nice if here, in a "sex positive community", that could be avoided. less