The New Intimacy

#SexIs - #DevilsAdvocate - Should “Creep Shaming” be a thing?

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Contributor: Ansley Ansley


Should “Creep Shaming” be a thing?, by Roland Hulme! - Click here to read Roland's article about the topic after discovering the Men's Rights category on Reddit.com.



Okay, so you may be asking yourself "what the hell is creep shaming?". According to one Redditor it is thus:

Creep shaming is probably one of the most insidious and anti-equality things you can do. The ability to label men as "creepy" is just one privilege that women enjoy, and a constant source of fear of ostracizing that all men must fear in our society.

Our discussion topic is simply this:

Women: How do yo handle men who come on too strong or say really awkward things that make the hair on the back of your neck stand up on end? Has brushing off a creep ever ended badly for you?

Men: Were you ever taught how to not be a creep by either a peer, a parent, or a woman in your life? What were you doing at the time that was considered so over the line?
Answers (private voting - your screen name will NOT appear in the results):
Men: Have you ever been accused of being a creep?
Yes!
1
Never, I'm a perfect gentleman.
1
Um...not to my face?
6
.
Men: If you were labeled as a creep, how did it affect your behavior?
I straightened up and stopped doing "creepy" things.
I laughed and went about my merry way.
No one tried to correct me or could explain how I was creepy, they just told me I was.
2
..
4
Women: How do you handle the creepy men you encounter?
1
I distance myself at every available opportunity.
39
I flat out tell them to go away.
16
I try to correct their behavior by educating them on how I like to be approached.
8
...
Do women have the right to label men as creepy?
1
Absolutely!
38
No way, it's just another way to be mean.
3
Undecided.
7
....
Is creep shaming in any way, shape, or form the same as slut-shaming?
1
Yes! Neither are empowering.
5
No, not at all.
30
Um...not really sure.
13
Total votes: 176 (53 voters)
Poll is closed
09/06/2012
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Contributor: Ryuson Ryuson
(Review Program Mentor)
I have met plenty of creeps, but I am a HORRIBLE creep myself. When I meet someone that I want to be friends with, my first instinct is to follow them around and steal their things when they aren't looking. (I have since learned to control this urge and, you know, ask them their name and talk to them about their hobbies or something.)

Do I think that it's unfair when people find me creep? No, because I'm acting creepy. I also don't yell, publicly humiliate, or want people to not be allowed outside because they are creepy.

I think that that's the difference in slut shaming and not wanting to sit next to some fuck who keeps trying to grab your thigh. Slut shaming is when you don't like someone because of how they 'treat' themselves, but not liking someone because they're creepy is not liking them because of the way that they're treating YOU.

Your body and the way you are treated is up to you. You never have to be treated in a way you don't want, and should always be 'allowed' to remove yourself from an uncomfortable situation.
09/06/2012
Contributor: Chilipepper Chilipepper
A creep is being aggressive, disrespecting boundaries, and giving women PTSD. I don't see how this is "acceptable behavior" to anyone in the 21st century, or at least in any place that acknowledges women are more than blow-up dolls with a pulse.
09/06/2012
Contributor: ToyGeek ToyGeek
I only think it's appropriate to take aggressive action if the person actually constitutes a danger, in which case you should be filing a police report, not wielding mob justice on the Internet or orchestrating a public shaming of some kind.

On the other hand, women do have the right to tell men to back off, and expect that wish granted. It's not being impolite to be firm in defending one's right to be left alone, and to feel safe in a public space, and if a man doesn't back off, and a woman is given no choice but to be loud in repeating the request, any "shaming" is the act of the man. Women do not owe strange men -- or any men -- conversation, the benefit of the doubt, etc. That anyone talks about women having the "privilege" in this situation is quite frankly ridiculous. Women live every day with the possibility of rape, and this alleged "privilege" springs directly from that fact.
09/06/2012
Contributor: Deeder Deeder
The way I see it, if a dude is going to act like a creeper, he deserves to be treated like a creeper. Same thing with chicks acting/being treated as sluts. If a person wants to be treated with respect they have to earn it, not just assume that it's owed to them.
09/06/2012
Contributor: edeneve edeneve
Quote:
Originally posted by ToyGeek
I only think it's appropriate to take aggressive action if the person actually constitutes a danger, in which case you should be filing a police report, not wielding mob justice on the Internet or orchestrating a public shaming of some ... more
ditto - I agree!!! listen, if a guy won't take my polite comments that "I don't want to..." and he's yucky in the first place - yeah, he's a creep!
09/06/2012
Contributor: pix pix
I would never say all men are creeps. I would never say that every man in a group of men is a creep. But individually, I have every f*ing right to tell a man that he is making me uncomfortable and that I find his behavior suspicious, creepy, and threatening. I hope that a man would be more comfortable with me warning him that he is a creep, than he would be with me putting some pepper spray in his face without warning. But I have no problem using the pepper spray either.
09/06/2012
Contributor: GONE! GONE!
I think there's a difference between socially ignorant and creepy. Creeps should definitely be shamed.
09/07/2012
Contributor: Ansley Ansley
Ok, so let's flip this around shall we?

Women can be just as creepy, no? It seems it's more acceptable to tell a man he is a creep than telling a woman that she's being psycho. Why is that?
09/07/2012
Contributor: Femme Mystique Femme Mystique
As a lesbian, I've received unwanted attention from both men and women and referred to them as creepy. I think this raises a few good points though. As women, it is NOT our responsiblity to teach men (or other women) about appropriate boundaries. But whose responsiblity is it? Are men responsible for educating themselves?
09/07/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Here's my response to the article:

Really? THIS is a thing? Women get raped, men get..... "offended." Women avoid creepy behavior as a survival tactic and talk about it to warn our fellow women, do y'all not get that?

PLENTY of men do not act creepy, and are never called creepy. Me thinks some men proteseth too much. Being called "creepy" is completely avoidable. (Unlike, say, being called a "whore" or even a "dyke" simply because you rebuff some creepy guy's unwanted advances....)

The answer is in your article; "“Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.”

That's it.

For the record, I'm not going to "educate" some guy who I am in fear of being raped or harmed by. What the FUCK kind of idea is this?

As for it being on par with "slut shaming." No. It isn't. Men label women "sluts" due to their dress, or actions, or even because that particular women obviously HAS a sex life, but won't give THIS particular guy any part of that sex life. (We DO have the right to CHOOSE our own sex partners and decline invitations. When those declines are ignored.... you're being creepy if you continue!)

"Slut" behavior (or the perception of such) doesn't pose any real threat to men. "Creep" behavior poses a HUGE emotional, psychological and physical threat to women.

Fuckin' deal with it. Don't BE a creep and you'll have nothing to complain about in this area.

Jeez. Are we really discussing this, as if it were.... whatever?
09/07/2012
Contributor: Chilipepper Chilipepper
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
Here's my response to the article:

Really? THIS is a thing? Women get raped, men get..... "offended." Women avoid creepy behavior as a survival tactic and talk about it to warn our fellow women, do y'all not get ... more
Eloquently and beautifully put, P'Gell!!!
09/07/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by ToyGeek
I only think it's appropriate to take aggressive action if the person actually constitutes a danger, in which case you should be filing a police report, not wielding mob justice on the Internet or orchestrating a public shaming of some ... more
Amen, sister!

I'm chafing at the idea that we, as women are somehow responsible for "educating" the few men who don't know how to behave like gentlemen around women.

As I said, WTF?

NOT wanting to be raped, mauled, molested or even not wanting our personal space invaded is NOT a "privilege." It's a right.

Nobody said anything about "websites" or "Tumblrs" I have NO idea where that idea came from. (I've never heard a single solitary woman want to do something like that.) I just know we have a right to SAY NO and warn our fellow women when I guy won't leave us alone or thinks he is entitled to our attention and won't give up.

Does this small enclave of men (who have obviously been called "creeps" in the past) not understand the fear and vulnerability women are subjected to? And, how long did it take for them to think this stuff up? "Hmmm. We're in a position of male privilege and power, how can we step on women who won't sleep with us even further.... Eureka! They call us "creeps!" Let's organize and get offended by that!" .....the fuck?

Thanks, Chili.
09/07/2012
Contributor: Ansley Ansley
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
Here's my response to the article:

Really? THIS is a thing? Women get raped, men get..... "offended." Women avoid creepy behavior as a survival tactic and talk about it to warn our fellow women, do y'all not get ... more
I think it's really interesting that it's perfectly okay for a woman to label a man as a creep - regardless if it's deserved or not, but it's not okay for a man to label a woman as anything.

Certainly, there are people we have encountered in society that send off warning bells from thugs to creeps to crazy cat ladies. If society lets those people fall through the cracks with either poor parenting or not correcting the bad behavior that makes us feel threatened, then how will it ever change?

I'm not saying it's anyone's sole responsibility but I have in the past told someone they were being utterly creepy and I wanted them to back off. That was the end of the perceived threat and I've always wondered if I made a mis-step and instead of keeping a creeper in check, I wounded someone who was already socially awkward.
09/07/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Ansley
I think it's really interesting that it's perfectly okay for a woman to label a man as a creep - regardless if it's deserved or not, but it's not okay for a man to label a woman as anything.

Certainly, there are people we have ... more
It's not my job to "keep creepers in check." It's my job to keep myself and fellow women safe.

FTR, I rarely "label" a guy a creeper, (in part, because most guys aren't creepers) I don't go out to clubs anymore and that eliminates about 98% of them. But, say the sex offender who lives two blocks from our home? (He's on the register for "sexual assault of a child under 13") He stands in front of his apartment building and waves at kids. Should I say nothing to warn others, because he's "awkward?" Not bloody likely.

He spent a decade in jail, I'm sure as hell not going to try to "educate" him, either. (I don't want myself or my kid to end up chained to a radiator in his apartment.)

Or the guy on the block behind us, who every woman in the neighborhood has had problems with invading boundaries, saying inappropriate things etc. Yes, we don't want our daughters (or sons) near this guy.

I just want myself, my daughters and other women I love (even if I don't know them) to be safe.

The article hit the nail on the head; "Men afraid of getting offended. Women are afraid of getting killed." (or raped.)

Nuff said.
09/07/2012
Contributor: Beck Beck
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
Here's my response to the article:

Really? THIS is a thing? Women get raped, men get..... "offended." Women avoid creepy behavior as a survival tactic and talk about it to warn our fellow women, do y'all not get ... more
I you!
09/07/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Beck
I you!
Back atcha, Babe! Thank you.
09/07/2012
Contributor: Beck Beck
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
It's not my job to "keep creepers in check." It's my job to keep myself and fellow women safe.

FTR, I rarely "label" a guy a creeper, (in part, because most guys aren't creepers) I don't go out to clubs ... more
Ugh, we have one of those sex offenders in our neighborhood. He must live exactly 1001 feet away from the school. Him and a lady who looks like his wife(?) have a sofa right outside the front door. Everyday, they both sit out and watch the Elementary school kids walk down the street. He is an offender for children crimes (under 13) and everyday he has a parade of potential victims who walk by his fence as he sits right up against it on the sofa.
09/07/2012
Contributor: Ansley Ansley
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
It's not my job to "keep creepers in check." It's my job to keep myself and fellow women safe.

FTR, I rarely "label" a guy a creeper, (in part, because most guys aren't creepers) I don't go out to clubs ... more
Just like with everything there is a spectrum. The sex offender? Yes, his presence in your neighborhood should be announced. The guy who made a simple mistake and said the wrong thing to the wrong girl? No, I don't think he should be put on blast.

There's a difference between being a predator and being a creep and/or socially awkward. There is also a difference between educating and rehabilitating someone.
09/07/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Beck
Ugh, we have one of those sex offenders in our neighborhood. He must live exactly 1001 feet away from the school. Him and a lady who looks like his wife(?) have a sofa right outside the front door. Everyday, they both sit out and watch the Elementary ... more
Yeah, this CREEP lives exactly one foot or so beyond where he is allowed to live, too. Our school district doesn't think his presence on what would be half the kids' walk to school "a danger" and refuses to bus our kids. I insisted my daughter get bussed, due to, in part, medical issues, and they put my baby on the short bus as a "punishment." (The woman who works in the district office is very unkind.)

There used to be THREE of them in this same apartment building, just beyond 1000 yards of the middle school and just a little farther from the grammar school.

UGH.
09/07/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Ansley
Just like with everything there is a spectrum. The sex offender? Yes, his presence in your neighborhood should be announced. The guy who made a simple mistake and said the wrong thing to the wrong girl? No, I don't think he should be put on ... more
I still maintain my right to say NO, to protect myself and other women and I maintain the opinion that MOST men are not creepy and they don't have to be. I also maintain that is isn't my nor any other non-related woman's job to "educate" a creeper. Sorry, I'm not risking my own safety. Nor should any other woman. It isn't that hard to recognize and honor an other person's boundaries. THAT is what this is about.

"Slut" shaming (or the behavior, dress or whatever that causes some men to call women "sluts") doesn't cause a physical threat to men. Women ONLY use the word "creep" when they feel threatened, THAT is the difference.

Please read my posts again. Do you really disagree with what I wrote in all of them? I'm the last person to every play a victim card, but being safe and not wanting one's boundaries invaded is a right, pure and simple.
09/07/2012
Contributor: Beck Beck
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
Yeah, this CREEP lives exactly one foot or so beyond where he is allowed to live, too. Our school district doesn't think his presence on what would be half the kids' walk to school "a danger" and refuses to bus our kids. I insisted ... more
OMG! I don't have children in school, so I don't know how that is, but this is an apartment building that over time houses a number of offenders. UGH!

At the current moment, I live within a 100ft of three offenders. I am scared to walk the dog. These are people with violent crimes against adult women that included kidnapping. I don't walk around the block without my husband and I don't like to go outside without having my my knife. I lock the doors all day long and don't go outside except for taking the dog outside. I am scared.

Sounds like a bunch of ass clowns run that school district you are talking about. What a dick move to put her on the short bus as a punishment.
09/07/2012
Contributor: Ansley Ansley
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
I still maintain my right to say NO, to protect myself and other women and I maintain the opinion that MOST men are not creepy and they don't have to be. I also maintain that is isn't my nor any other non-related woman's job to ... more
Maybe you aren't reading mine?

No one is challenging a woman's right to say no. You can tuck that argument to bed. No one is challenging a woman's right to remain safe.

Simply asking, where's the line? How liberally is the term applied? What is the difference between calling a woman a slut and calling a man a creep or a predator?

When a woman calls another woman a slut, why does she do that? I'm willing to bet it's because she feels threatened by the woman's sexual expression and choice of clothing and the attention it garners.

When a woman calls a man a creep, she's labeling his behavior as threatening. We get that. But, what is it about that particular behavior that is threatening? Is it a tone of voice, is it an intruding question, is it...something else entirely, all of it put together?

And lastly, what is the best way to deal with it? Is it best to run screaming from the room yelling fire? Do you politely tell him to go away and express zero interest in further conversation?
09/07/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Beck
OMG! I don't have children in school, so I don't know how that is, but this is an apartment building that over time houses a number of offenders. UGH!

At the current moment, I live within a 100ft of three offenders. I am scared to ... more
I'm sorry you have to be afraid. That sucks. I hope conditions improve for both of us.
09/07/2012
Contributor: indiglo indiglo
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
Here's my response to the article:

Really? THIS is a thing? Women get raped, men get..... "offended." Women avoid creepy behavior as a survival tactic and talk about it to warn our fellow women, do y'all not get ... more
Preach it!


If a man makes me feel unsafe, I think he's creepy. That is just survival instinct. And, if necessary for the situation, I'll tell any friend who's with me that I'm getting a creepy vibe off some guy. I base that on the way he looks at me, talks to me and behaves towards me - and yes, it's to protect myself.

I don't go around saying all men are creeps, because they aren't. I'd even venture to say that most men aren't creeps. But let's face it, creeps exist, and if we can protect ourselves from them (even a little) we owe it to ourselves to do that.
09/07/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Ansley
Maybe you aren't reading mine?

No one is challenging a woman's right to say no. You can tuck that argument to bed. No one is challenging a woman's right to remain safe.

Simply asking, where's the line? How liberally is ... more
OK, this part, I don't get at all: QUOTE: When a woman calls a man a creep, she's labeling his behavior as threatening. We get that. But, what is it about that particular behavior that is threatening? Is it a tone of voice, is it an intruding question, is it...something else entirely, all of it put together? END QUOTE

I don't really see the coherence of this part, either. QUOTEAnd lastly, what is the best way to deal with it? Is it best to run screaming from the room yelling fire? Do you politely tell him to go away and express zero interest in further conversation? END QUOTE But, the fact that when someone expresses no interest and is still bothered and pursued seems to be part of the problem. In a bar, club or party situation THIS is when the word seems to be dragged out, not before....

Your argument seems to be all over the place and I'm not sure what the point is. I get the impression you're playing Devil's Advocate just to play it and losing your voice and point in the struggle. I'm not seeing the coherence of your argument. I'm sorry.
09/07/2012
Contributor: indiglo indiglo
Quote:
Originally posted by Ansley
Maybe you aren't reading mine?

No one is challenging a woman's right to say no. You can tuck that argument to bed. No one is challenging a woman's right to remain safe.

Simply asking, where's the line? How liberally is ... more
But, what is it about that particular behavior that is threatening? Is it a tone of voice, is it an intruding question, is it...something else entirely, all of it put together?

And lastly, what is the best way to deal with it? Is it best to run screaming from the room yelling fire? Do you politely tell him to go away and express zero interest in further conversation?


It's impossible to make a completely inclusive list of "creepy behaviors". But for me, it's things that are outside the socially accepted norm. Being groped, rubbed up against unnecessarily, being ogled for an extended period of time (hey, I understand anyone "checking out" someone they find attractive, because I do it too), any kind of boundary crossing - be it verbal, physical, whatever. I don't think it's really that hard to do if you're a reasonable, rational human being. Also, maybe I could say - any guy who does not respect my efforts to distance myself from him may be "creepy". Because there again is a crossing of a boundary that I'm putting down to protect myself... and he continues crossing it. That's creepy.

The best way to deal with it? Depends on the level of behavior you're seeing. But if I'm dealing with someone who makes ME feel unsafe - you can bet I'm not worried about protecting his "feelings". As if!

09/07/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by indiglo
Preach it!


If a man makes me feel unsafe, I think he's creepy. That is just survival instinct. And, if necessary for the situation, I'll tell any friend who's with me that I'm getting a creepy vibe off some guy. I base ... more
Yep. Thank you, too. None of us can make an inclusive list, nor control how others behave.

It about our protection and need and right to feel safe, and to help protect our fellow women. Of course, we can't control every other woman on the planet, nor explain every other woman's behavior, who would even expect one to, y'know? That's an unreasonable request.
09/07/2012
Contributor: Ansley Ansley
Quote:
Originally posted by indiglo
But, what is it about that particular behavior that is threatening? Is it a tone of voice, is it an intruding question, is it...something else entirely, all of it put together?

And lastly, what is the best way to deal with it? Is it best to ... more
For me, the creep factor sets in when the leering and touching start. Or if we've just met and you're asking really probing questions about my habits and schedule. That just screams "get out now". I don't think I actively fear for my safety per se so much as I just know that I'm uncomfortable and if I distance myself, I'll no longer feel uncomfortable. (Also probably helps that I'm never not with my husband in public and he's a really big guy who would do anything to protect me.) Though, now that I think about it he's pointed out creepy guys to me in the past and I found them to be harmless and just socially awkward.

Yet, some of the most notorious serial killers and rapists were the most charismatic people you'd ever meet, their charisma often overriding the bells, whistles, and flags going off.

I guess the baseline question is - are our assumptions and judgments about people correct?

If P'Gell hadn't have researched and known where said predators are, would she still feel threatened by the guy waving to the kids?

If my husband hadn't have told me to look over my shoulder and take notice of the "creepy" guy behind us, would it have struck me to do it anyway?

I definitely think everyone has a different level and a different radar for creepy behavior and it's just really interesting to find out what constitutes as creepy for one person may not be creepy to someone else. And how are guys supposed to know the difference?

It seems to me that someone in their life, be it friend or family (or a judge ) would make some effort to say "hey, that's not cool. Ladies don't like that and the ones that do you probably don't want".
09/07/2012
Contributor: indiglo indiglo
Quote:
Originally posted by Ansley
For me, the creep factor sets in when the leering and touching start. Or if we've just met and you're asking really probing questions about my habits and schedule. That just screams "get out now". I don't think I actively fear ... more
It seems to me that someone in their life, be it friend or family (or a judge ) would make some effort to say "hey, that's not cool. Ladies don't like that and the ones that do you probably don't want".


Someone (a friend, family member OR judge) may have said just that. But not all people care to behave in appropriate, socially acceptable ways.

You make a good point about serial killers and rapists sometimes being very charismatic and NOT setting off bells or alarms though. That only makes me think that we aren't calling ENOUGH men creepy! lol (Not really.) Part of life is knowing that we aren't clairvoyant wizards, and we can't know the outcome of every situation. All we can do is try to be aware and alert... like P'Gell said, we can't control other people's behavior. So we just do the best we can to stay alert and the rest is luck & happenstance I suppose.
09/07/2012